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eztenn
05-05-2018, 04:40 AM
https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/3c3f65b1-3502-4984-aa43-b04705d4ebba.pnghttps://www.oceancrawler.com/collections/frontpage/products/ocean-crawler-ocean-navigator-black
https://www.oceancrawler.com/collections/frontpage/products/ocean-crawler-ocean-navigator-blue

roadwarrior
05-05-2018, 07:03 AM
Not a bad looking watch, but with the choice of movement, the price seems high IMO for the STP1-11.

eztenn
05-05-2018, 07:54 AM
Review: STP 1-11 Posted on June 27, 2016 (http://watchguy.co.uk/review-stp-1-11/) by Christian (http://watchguy.co.uk/author/christian/)
http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010838-300x225.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010838.jpg)Since the Swatch Group had decided to bite its nose off to spite its face, e.g. not to supply parts and movements outside the Swatch Group, ETA has been bearing most of the brunt. From the most important movement manufacturer, it will soon be relegated to be a small company making movements for the Swatch Group only.
If I were working at ETA, I would be furious about being almost destroyed. That aside, everyone who has in the past been using ETA movements for their watches now has to look somewhere else. One of the new players in the market are STP (http://www.swisstp.com/en/home), who are based in the Italian speaking part of Switzerland, in Manno.
Carlos from the Prometheus Watch Company (http://www.prometheuswatch.com/) in Portugal is looking for an ETA replacement, and wanted me to have a look at the STP 1-11, which is a direct copy of the ETA 2824-2. As the design for the movement isn’t copyrighted any more, everyone can produce a copy. So let’s see …http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010839-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010839.jpg)
The movement on first sight looks great. The finishes are as they should be, the decoration reflects the ETA original, and everything is just so. Let’s look at some microscope shots.http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627112716-1024x766.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627112716.jpg)
The balance cock and balance, with parts of the rotor visible. The Cote de Geneve decoration on the rotor is nicely executed.http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627112744-1024x766.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627112744.jpg)
A close up of the top balance jewels, properly oiled and clean as it should be.http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627112801-1024x766.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627112801.jpg)
Balance cock detail of the regulator, with perlage decoration visible. The “+” sign and the markers are incredibly well executed. If you want some comparison, have a look at an earlier comparison we did of an original ETA with 2 Chinese clones (http://watchguy.co.uk/comparison-sea-gull-st2130-eta-2824-2-peacock-sl3000/).
.http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627113755-1024x766.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627113755.jpg)
The STP logo is very nicely done, and looks a lot better than the stamped logo ETA uses.http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627113817-1024x766.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/0627113817.jpg)
This is a also a nice touch, and I wonder where the 26th jewel is hiding! I will take apart the movement later to hunt it down.
Next, and of course the most important bit, we look at performance.http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010840-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010840.jpg) http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010841-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010841.jpg) http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010842-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010842.jpg) http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010843-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010843.jpg) http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010844-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010844.jpg) http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010845-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010845.jpg)
So the movement runs at -3s/day to +7s/day, giving us a total maximum daily variation of 10 seconds. This is very much along the lines of the ETA original, which isn’t COSC certified, either. On the wrist, this will translate to a pretty constant performance of +- 2 to 4 seconds per day or so, exactly what you get out of the ETA. The amplitude is good throughout, as you would expect.
Now where is that extra jewel?http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010849-1024x768.jpg (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/P1010849.jpg)
In the right place! The barrel bridge has a jewel for the upper barrel arbor, and that is spot on. The barrel bridge can easily wear out, and a jewel here will add to the longevity. The lower barrel arbor is of course jewelled as in the ETA.
Conclusion I prefer the STP 1-11 over the ETA 2824-2 for the following reasons:


very nicely finished
movement markings better executed than on the ETA
jewelled barrel bridge

So what we have here is an improved classic with the performance we are used to, and added longevity. What’s not to like?

roadwarrior
05-05-2018, 08:42 AM
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1626/5247/products/KONA6.jpg?v=1522416954

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qaUupbxbJA

IMO the looks and finish on a movement in a watch with a solid case back makes no difference. I'm not saying anything is wrong with the movement. I see established brands using the same movement or ETA 2824-2 for less.
The OC does have a titanium case, but I paid $466.40 for the Devil Ray below with the STP1-11 and $437.50 for the Borealis using the same movement. The quote below is from NTH owner, Devil Ray designer Chris Vail about the movements.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4781/26099619267_720a49520a_b.jpghttps://farm5.staticflickr.com/4774/40970890551_702c907a6c_b.jpghttps://farm5.staticflickr.com/4367/37034877981_160f00f239_c.jpghttps://farm5.staticflickr.com/4579/38652358792_5740425019_b.jpg


Chris Vail:
Here again, this is the sort of analysis involved in many of the decisions which go into product development.

When I realized what the unit cost of the Tropics was going to be - with a 9015 in it - I realized a lot of people would moan about it only having a 9015, so we put a Swiss movement in it, and raised the price some more to compensate.

My analysis was essentially this - the likely moaning about a $650 watch with a 9015 in it, coming from guys who don't want to pay that much for ANY watch with "only" a 9015 in it, would outweigh the moaning about a $700 watch with the STP, coming from guys who would have loved it if I'd put a Seiko NH35 in it, made it 1mm thicker, and sold it for $200 less.

That's why the protos had 9015's in them - we originally intended to use the 9015, but I realized that would have made it much harder to sell for the price I would need in order to justify production. It seemed to me that it was an easier sell at $700 with an STP than at $650 with a 9015, or at $500 with an NH35.

Honestly, the STP is nice, but I honestly prefer the 9015, all around, even with its quirks. I've never noticed the "noisy rotor", ever. The wobble doesn't bother me, in fact I kind of like it, as it reminds me I'm wearing a watch, and I look at how awesome it is. The winding is super-smooth. And we could have shaved 0.5mm out of the case thickness if we'd stuck with it, rather than adding 0.5mm to accommodate the STP.

But, for all those who put self-imposed limits on what they'll spend on a watch with "only" a _____ movement in it, and like to make everyone aware of it, perhaps to put pressure on manufacturers to lower prices, you see it has the opposite effect.

All we do (those of us who know what we're doing) is INCREASE the specs and components, in order to reach that ideal price vs specs point of equilibrium. The price goes UP,not down.

Congrats! You no longer have to pay me $500 for an awesome watch with "only" an NH35 in it. Now it's $700 for an awesome watch with an STP.

It's a decades-old design that still has known hand-winding issues, has about a 3% defect rate from the manufacturer, can be called "Swiss Made" even if 100% of the parts are made in China, doesn't keep time better than or have a power reserve equal to the 9015, and requires expensive servicing no less often than every 7 years.

THAT'S its track record, in a nutshell. But, but, but...it's "Swiss", and so...reasons, not racism, it MUST be better, right?
That's marketing.

The Swiss watch-making industry was almost destroyed by the quartz revolution/crisis. What saved them was the genius idea to re-position mechanical watches (SWISS mechanical watches) as luxury items, a little piece of old-world craftsmanship, identifying the wearer as a sophisticated man of wealth and taste. They've invested billions in perpetuating that image with lifestyle marketing, celebrity endorsements, event sponsorships, and ludicrous nonsense, all while steadily moving production overseas, to China, and devaluing the "Swiss Made" label.

I'm a pragmatist. Spending upwards of $200 to service a $600 watch doesn't make much sense to me. I think I'm like many people, in that I'm more likely to NOT have it serviced, and simply sell it on to someone else, so it becomes their problem, or, if I keep it, just let it run until it stops, which isn't going to be decades, you can be sure.

Am I certain the 9015 will run for decades without servicing? Nope. But there are thousands of vintage, never-been-serviced watches with Seiko and Miyota movements available on ebay and elsewhere, and have been for years. Know what they all have in common? They're all still running, despite not being serviced.

Given the track records of these Japanese movements, compared to the known issues and maintenance requirements of the Swiss movements, I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the 9015 runs for MUCH longer without service than the 2824-2.

I said the movements are essentially disposable. You misquoted me (deliberately, I believe) by saying the watch is disposable. That's not technically true, so long as replacement movements are available. However, I'll play your game - assume a replacement movement can't be located when the first movement begins performing poorly.

What then?
Well, if I'm going to concede that a replacement isn't available, I'm also going to maintain that the time when the first movement fails AND a replacement isn't going to be available is going to be sometime pretty far in the future.

How far? I dunno, but surely 10 years, if not 20 or 30. If you spent $600 for the watch, and got 10 years of service out of it, then it cost you $60/year. If you got 30 years of service, it cost you $20/year.

I can buy an el-cheapo $20-$60 watch which might last me a year or two before I toss it out and buy a new one, or I can step up to something of much better quality, specs and components, perhaps something with a better design, which gives me a stronger sense of pride in ownership.

Again, what's the service cost on a 2824-2, if you can even find a watchmaker to service one? It's not like watchmakers are as plentiful as Starbucks. One of the "biggest"schools here in the USA turns out about 5 or 6 graduates per year, most of whom get sucked up by the big, luxury-brand repair networks. There are only a handful of watchmaking schools at that. Good, independent watchmakers who take in new work, happily, and turn that work around quickly are as rare as hen's teeth. They're retiring and dying at a faster rate than we can produce new ones to replace them.

Where I am, the only decent watchmaker for at least an hour in every direction charges about $250 to do a basic 7-year service. He's only open 3 days per week, he's fairly gruff, and takes as long as he takes to turn service work around.

But let's say it's $210, to make the math easy. That's an added $30/year in ownership costs, on top of your purchase price. You'd have to own that watch a LOOOOOONNNNGGGGG time for its ownership costs to equal, or beat, the costs associated with owning a comparable watch with the 9015 in it.

On paper, regardless of cost, I think the 9015 is a better movement than the 2824-2. It's a newer design, doesn't have any known performance or reliability issues, comes well decorated and keeps good time right out of the box, has a longer power reserve, and doesn't require expensive maintenance every 7 years. When it fails, if it does, likely decades from now, a replacement is only $100 away. What's not to like? Why on earth would I prefer the 2824-2?

I look at ALL $600 watches as being essentially disposable, on a long enough timeline, regardless of what movement is inside them. The only question is - which movement makes more sense to use?

davecash77
05-05-2018, 09:36 AM
That is a nice looking watch.

eztenn
05-05-2018, 03:56 PM
https://youtu.be/VbQWO22pprk

https://youtu.be/gHtcwISbWi0
:wink:Mr. Vail good salesman

daycoo2
05-05-2018, 05:52 PM
That is a nice looking watch.
^^^One sharp looking time piece indeed.^^^:cheers:

curiousgeorge
05-06-2018, 08:32 AM
I have the Swatch used and approved STP movements in both the 3 hand and chrono auto and will never hesitate to buy either. Especially the three hand at the same price as an eta 2824. On the chrono version I would opt for the V7750 at similar price just because I like the wobble but I would take the STP auto chrono at the same price as any SW500. which also doesn't have the wobble. I know a lot of people are worried about some silicon pieces in the movement but major high-end brands like Ulysses Nardin use silicone parts in their movements for The Freak and no one worries there. Hasn't been many reports of problems thus far and these movements have been being used for a number of years now. Still everyone has choices and all those choices are validated by a persons own good reasons and should always spend their money based on that. I've had more then one wonky eta 2824 in my collection over the years but by shear volume of them in my collection I almost always look to them to be trusted and a nice selling point for me.

roadwarrior
05-06-2018, 09:43 AM
The STP1-11 as far as I know doesn't have any silicone pieces. It actually uses the higher quality Nivaflex NM material for the barrel spring compared to the standard grade ETA 2824-2 using Nivaflex NO. It always comes down to personal choices along with price, not only for consumers, but the people building the watches. The NTH and Borealis I have both use the STP1-11 and run great, but I also purchased them both for substantially less, direct from the companies.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/957/40121727590_dbbeb2012c_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/248qkMY)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/825/28058147188_b29f70843c_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JKpkCq)

curiousgeorge
05-06-2018, 09:53 AM
That is a very good read RW. Very informative.