Screw pins - why?

Locoboy5150

Tyme Machine
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
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I just broke the bank and I bought a Suppaparts Stevral titanium bracelet for my Citizen Eco-Drive BN7020 dive watch. It was, by far, my most expensive watch and bracelet combination. The bracelet is absolutely fantastic in every way, except for one – it uses screw pins to hold the links together and to attach the end links to the case adapters. I know to use thread locking compound on all screw fasteners on my watch bracelets, which I have done religiously, but this time I tried an experiment and I didn’t use any after sizing my new Suppaparts bracelet. I was going to spend an entire Saturday just relaxing at home and I have thick carpeting everywhere. It would be a safe and soft environment to see what would happen if I skipped using thread locking compound on all of the screws.


After about half a day, about three of the bracelet screw pins and one of the end link pins were coming loose. I was keeping an eye on them so I caught them coming out before anything came crashing down to the carpet. I just wanted to see if a more expensive bracelet would have thread locking compound from the factory – nope!


I was doing this in a pretty safe environment and I know all too well to use thread locking compound on all screw fasteners on my watches, but what about the people out there that don’t know about this little trick? I have never ever seen it mentioned on any watch dealer/manufacturer website or in an instruction manual to use it. Suppaparts does not mention its use anywhere in their official literature. I feel sorry for fellow watch fans that don’t know about thread locking compound. Unfortunately, they’ll have to learn the hard and painful way of their watch falling off of their wrist and on the cold, hard ground. If they caught their new watch before it hit the ground, they still would have to replace the tiny screw(s) with what are usually proprietary ones that are almost impossible to find anywhere for sale individually.


This brings up the question of why on earth do watch manufacturers use screw pins at all? In all my years of owning watches, I have never ever had a split pin come loose from a bracelet. I have never had a pin and collar type bracelet connection come loose. I have never had a spring bar come out from a watch case lug. I only have four watch bracelets with screw pin connections but in every single case they have come from the factory with loose screws right out of the box. This is unacceptable in my opinion. I know all too well how to fix this problem but not every watch owner reads message boards to learn about these little fixes to prevent future issues. Why don’t watch manufacturers tell their customers to use thread locking compound on those tiny screws? I don’t get it – what are they hiding and what do they have to gain by hiding it?


To make matters worse, many watch companies list screw pin connections as an “upgrade” to regular split pin or pin and collar type bracelets. Based on my own experience, that is 100% pure garbage. They are NOT an improvement. I am a mechanical engineer and one of the basic rules in my profession is to minimize parts count to increase reliability and decrease production cost. In other words, as us four wheelers preach – K.I.S.S. (“Keep It Simple Stupid!”) Adding screws to the pin connections on a watch bracelet goes against this most basic of engineering concepts, both in theory and in practice. That especially is true if the screws are a proprietary design, as is usually the case with watch bracelets.


Also, as a general rule in mechanical engineering, standard screws should never ever be used for hinged joints. The very nature of a hinge moving causes the screw to loosen. A watch bracelet is basically a small hinge. The exact same theory for a door hinge applies to a watch bracelet. There’s a reason why the hinges on the doors in a house do not have threaded pins holding the two parts together. Why can’t watch bracelet companies follow the same design practice? It boggles my mind.


So, if you don’t want to get screwed, use thread locking compound on all watch screws but the ideal bracelet design does not use any screws at all. Please don’t fall for the hype from the watch manufacturers either. Screwed-together bracelets are NOT better than other simpler bracelets.


Don’t get screwed!


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I have to agree.

From my perspective, having worked on pretty much all of my watches and bracelets at one time or another, I would prefer good old friction pins in my bracelets. They are easy to take out and put back in, and I've never had a problem with them failing.

I've been lucky with the bracelets with screws, but I don't want to jinx myself here LOL!
 
I don't have a ton of experience here but I do have about 10 Renato's I wear regularly and the aragon charger. I've never had one issue with a bracelet screw Coming Undone. I might be in the minority but I find it to be an upgrade. Not only do I feel a better sense of security because the thickness of the screw is typically five times that of the friction pin, but friction pins can slide out as well. I've had numerous Invicta watches with free sliding pins. The last Invicta I size the Friction pin actually snapped in half when I was pulling it the correct way perpendicularly out of the bracelets with a pair of pliers. I had to take a pin from another watch to hammer out the other half of the pin that was lodged in. And of course when I contacted Invicta for replacement pin they don't have any I just need to buy an entire new bracelet. So I guess some of our tastes are different but when I see screws I consider it an upgrade, hands down and have never needed to use loctite.
We could probably agree that a nice solid pin and collar system is probably the best of both worlds.
 
I don't have a ton of experience here but I do have about 10 Renato's I wear regularly and the aragon charger. I've never had one issue with a bracelet screw Coming Undone. I might be in the minority but I find it to be an upgrade. Not only do I feel a better sense of security because the thickness of the screw is typically five times that of the friction pin, but friction pins can slide out as well. I've had numerous Invicta watches with free sliding pins. The last Invicta I size the Friction pin actually snapped in half when I was pulling it the correct way perpendicularly out of the bracelets with a pair of pliers. I had to take a pin from another watch to hammer out the other half of the pin that was lodged in. And of course when I contacted Invicta for replacement pin they don't have any I just need to buy an entire new bracelet. So I guess some of our tastes are different but when I see screws I consider it an upgrade, hands down and have never needed to use loctite.
We could probably agree that a nice solid pin and collar system is probably the best of both worlds.

I did lose a end piece off my NFW Shumate threaded rod and just bout lost a threaded rod on another bracelet. I get what you are saying, we all have learned the hard way and I do look at threaded rods as an up-grade. Spring bars to me can also have issues and the pin & collar sys. is a royal pain in the tookis! I will be buying a thread lock product today!!!

This is funny cause have been collecting since 2006 and am just now being proactive. Another reason to belong to a Watch Forum such as WIT's !!! Thanks for the post, LB!
Just purchased a thread lock product.
 
LOL!

I have to agree to disagree.

My order of preference when it comes to bracelet screws/pins would be:

1. Friction pins

2. Screws

3. Pin and collar

I have many Seikos with that dastardly pin and collar system. I always lose a collar or two. I called Seiko the other day looking for some new collars but no joy--have to buy the entire bracelet (they were out of the collars at the time). Esslinger will sell you the collars but you have to take some fairly precise measurements.

Through an AMAZING stroke of luck, I ended up finding the 3 missing collars stuck to one of my punches. They were so small I didn't see them. Saved a few bucks too....

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LOL!

I have to agree to disagree.

My order of preference when it comes to bracelet screws/pins would be:

1. Friction pins

2. Screws

3. Pin and collar

I have many Seikos with that dastardly pin and collar system. I always lose a collar or two. I called Seiko the other day looking for some new collars but no joy--have to buy the entire bracelet (they were out of the collars at the time). Esslinger will sell you the collars but you have to take some fairly precise measurements.

Through an AMAZING stroke of luck, I ended up finding the 3 missing collars stuck to one of my punches. They were so small I didn't see them. Saved a few bucks too....

Home Depot has this watch repair tool kit on sale for $7.79
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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stalwar...aLijufP0KVxuSYohLXRoCLpoQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

It's probably a good thing most of my bracelets have frictions pins!
 
Pull out the crown, leave in the crown. Friction pins, screws. I still don’t know yet. I’m leaning towards screws a little bit more.
 
Something that's very important is to use a good screwdriver with the correct size tip. Nothing will make a job go South faster than tearing up the screw head with the wrong size.

1) single sided screws and always use purple or any low thread locker for reassembly
2) pin and collar
3) split pins

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I don't have a ton of experience here but I do have about 10 Renato's I wear regularly and the aragon charger. I've never had one issue with a bracelet screw Coming Undone. I might be in the minority but I find it to be an upgrade. Not only do I feel a better sense of security because the thickness of the screw is typically five times that of the friction pin, but friction pins can slide out as well. I've had numerous Invicta watches with free sliding pins. The last Invicta I size the Friction pin actually snapped in half when I was pulling it the correct way perpendicularly out of the bracelets with a pair of pliers. I had to take a pin from another watch to hammer out the other half of the pin that was lodged in. And of course when I contacted Invicta for replacement pin they don't have any I just need to buy an entire new bracelet. So I guess some of our tastes are different but when I see screws I consider it an upgrade, hands down and have never needed to use loctite.
We could probably agree that a nice solid pin and collar system is probably the best of both worlds.

Split pins can slide out but, at least based on my personal experience, they never do. Once again, based on my own experience, screw pins can and do loosen. As I said, 100% all of my screwed-together bracelets have had at least one screw loose from the factory. I know to use thread locking compound on all screws so I fixed the loose screws before I wore any of my watches but not every watch customer knows that. Based on what I've read online, quite a few people have had their screw pins loosen and their watch fall on the ground. The watch manufacturers could easily provide the information in their literature to prevent their customers' frustration but they don't for some unknown reason. :dunno:

If you snapped a split pin by "pulling it the correct way" then that was not the correct way to do it. I have never snapped a pin but then again I have never used pliers to pull one out. The correct way to prevent bending or breaking a split pin is to use a punch to push the pin until it is completely free to fall out on its own. All that I know is that that is the only way that I've done it and I have never damaged or broken a split pin.

If you're not using thread locking compound on your pin screws, please post if you ever have a problem. :) You are much braver than me. After my experience with my very first screw pin bracelet a few years ago that came from the factory (Aragon) with several loose screws, I use thread locking compound on every single screw now.

Using a threaded fastener on any hinged joint is a huge no-no in the engineering world. :nope:
 
Some do warn and give advice about sizing bracelets with screws. It wouldn't be a bad idea including a warning sticker or insert to advise customers. IMO no matter how much precaution they take, you will have some who just rip open the box and go at it without reading any literature included. I've seen this on all kinds of stuff beside timepieces. Some companies like Ball include a CD with instructions in PDF form, but some never even know they exist.

https://www.prometheuswatch.com/how-to-change-bracelet-remove-links-of-the-prometheus-sailfish/

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Just a friendly word of caution about changing the strap on your brand new Prometheus Sailfish. The lug screws and bracelet screws have been secured in place using a tiny amount of Loctite on the threads, so please read the information below carefully before you proceed:

PLEASE – Only attempt to unscrew the lugs if you know what you are doing and are confident you wont slip and scratch or damage the watch

If you are at all hesitant in doing it yourself, then STOP! Take it to a local watch repair shop, let them know that the threads have been glued for security, and ask them to do it for you. They have the right tools for the job.

Remember, the screw threads have been glued with a very small amount of Loctite 603 to make sure they stay tightened and do not unscrew accidentally. Even though it is a very small amount, it is very strong, so:

Before attempting to unscrewing them for the first time, use a hair dryer to blow some hot air on the screws in order to loosen the Loctite glue slightly. WD-40 oil is also a good alternative to the heating method. Just make sure no oil reaches the bezel in order not to damage sapphire insert

After you’ve heated the threads or applied WD40 oil to screw threads please use a quality screw driver for the bracelet and two screw drivers for the lug screws and apply some gentle force in order to break glue

If, after changing the straps, you want to make sure the screws stay firmly tightened once more, reapply a tiny amount of Loctite 603 on the threads while screwing them back together (only a very small quantity is necessary)

It’s a common practice to use some sort of thread locking glue, so this may not be a surprise to many of you. But for those of you that are NOT familiar with this we wanted to warn you so that you don’t try and force the screws and potentially damage them or the watch case doing so.

In image below we can see were the WD-40 oil or similar type of oil has to be applied in order to assist removing screws.

BRACELET-SCREWS.jpg


How to remove screws from prometheus sailfish braceletThis video at this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP5BQtPZbgA has a tutorial for a watch with a similar setting.
 
I will be using Blue medium product. I do appreciate all this information, we all do.
After viewing the video may be err on side of caution and get the low
strength purple.
 
I've had screws walk themselves out a number of times across a number of brands. Their are a few pin and collars set-ups I hate working on. Especially with many Seiko's bracelets. Once their together though they are very secure. I use loctite when I have screws though.
 
Mike: "WD-40 oil is also a good alternative to the heating method."

Danielle from Renato (when owned by MZ Berger) told me that's what they did after realizing renato used some sort of loctite on there caseback screws causing stripping issues.
 
You're correct about the bobbyD. Carlos from Prometheus had mentioned that back in 2014. That's when some buyers where having issues with the Sailfish bracelet screws.( see post #10 diagram)
 
Not to go on a tangent, but that brings me to another issue that should be mentioned. Be very careful when purchasing a used watch on eBay, or anywhere for that matter, with a phillips screw down case back... Renato stallions especially, for being stripped. and if the seller doesn't provide a clear photo of the case back, ask for one. Because if any of those screws are stripped you need to go to a jeweler who can drill them out and replace them which can be very costly, if you are lucky enough to even find replacement screws. MZ Berger actually had case back screws made for this problem. I'm not sure if Renato third owner Mark Rosenberg has access to that info. I can check with him if anyone has had this issue and it is still unresolved.
 
Interesting topic of conversation here. I think the bottom line is that no one system that currently exists is perfect.

Split pins usually aren't strong enough to handle thicker, heavier links. They bend easily and are usually used in very mass produced products which is why you may often find one that's a little tougher to pull out than others.

Pin and collars are often very tough to actually work on and then you run the risk of losing pieces. For some reason I've had watches (from when I was in sales) where some links just don't even seem removable because of a stubborn pin.

Screws of course can loosen but they are considered the top standard at least at this point. Double sided screw systems are easily my least favorite system. Having to use a block, having two parts that you may have to worry about losing or becoming loose. But I do find that a good single-sided screw system has been the most reliable. If nothing else it would take a good deal of time for a long single sided screw to come all the way undone and I would think the avergage person would notice before the whole thing came apart. Of course this system doesn't work with all link shapes.
 
The OP has dropped a clue that suggests we're dealing with a slightly different topic than screws vs friction pins vs pin and collar.

Just using Grand Seiko as a baseline their standard stainless bracelet uses screw pins. However, with models like the snowflake which employ a titanium bracelet they change to pins. Probably understandable as some of what one remembers about clamping force and threaded fasteners gets massaged once the screw pin is titanium. At least I'd get a little grumpy if the dude in the watch kiosk stripped out a titanium pin.

My background is more mundane than esoteric stuff about watch bracelets but it included commercial door hinges - the pins are indeed not threaded but they do include a projection which prohibits the pin from working its way out. This is distinct from the set screw sometimes provided in the barrel which differentiates "non-rising" from "non-removable". But some specialty hinges do employ pins with threads without issue though, like bracelet screws, they more resemble shoulder bolts - no thread occurs on moving contact surfaces.

One shouldn't extrapolate from specialty hinges to watch bracelets though so I'll refrain. But it might also be dubious to take common engineering knowledge and apply it to something as wild and wholly as the watch marketplace.

I suspect, without proof, that the usual rules apply: if something is done right it will work as designed. If something is copied because somebody else was doing it the potential exists to muck something up. GS, Rolex and Ball use screw pins and the usual considerations for bolt retention work just fine provided the proper tools are used. Workpiece clamping force / deformation done right doesn't require thread lock unless the watch is being worn by a chainsaw. Not that anything gets that technical: some dude with a set of Bergeron tools sizes my bracelets and nothing has worked loose - if I try it with some with age-hardened cheese "jewelers screwdrivers" it'll back itself out forthwith. Screw pins potentially offer less play and minimal friction but I doubt every screw pin in the marketplace was the result of thought as opposed to looking through an OEM catalog at which point all my bets are withdrawn.

Screw pins, friction pins and pin and collar systems all have their place and enjoy different advantages and disadvantages and are subject to less than perfect implementation. With all due deference and respect for the OP I'll stick with the GS and Ball steel screw pins. Titanium is however a big hairy exception.

Not having any knowledge of Suppaparts other than that the bracelet is a whopping 310.00 I'm curious what "titanium adaptors" means. Perhaps the tapped portion is sleeved?


I believe there might be two different discussions going on here: one consists of anecdotes and research on the various pin types and the other conversation - admittedly the one I'm interested in, is "what is Suppaparts doing specific to titanium screw pins?" or "are the screw pins actually titanium?". And the whole thing makes me wonder: does Citizen's JDM Chronomaster titanium use screws or pins? Citizen does advertise some magic titanium so who knows? But the possibility exists that everything we know about bracelet pins needs adjusted when titanium and his buddies crash the party.
 
Interesting topic of conversation here. I think the bottom line is that no one system that currently exists is perfect.

Split pins usually aren't strong enough to handle thicker, heavier links. They bend easily and are usually used in very mass produced products which is why you may often find one that's a little tougher to pull out than others.

Pin and collars are often very tough to actually work on and then you run the risk of losing pieces. For some reason I've had watches (from when I was in sales) where some links just don't even seem removable because of a stubborn pin.

Screws of course can loosen but they are considered the top standard at least at this point. Double sided screw systems are easily my least favorite system. Having to use a block, having two parts that you may have to worry about losing or becoming loose. But I do find that a good single-sided screw system has been the most reliable. If nothing else it would take a good deal of time for a long single sided screw to come all the way undone and I would think the avergage person would notice before the whole thing came apart. Of course this system doesn't work with all link shapes.
You just have to know the characteristics of the securing sys. you have.
 
I'm curious what "titanium adaptors" means.

These are what the OP was referring to Hawk.

Zilla Adapters

The original Suppa Parts Zilla Adapters are used to replace your original rubber strap on the Citizen eco-zilla and auto-zilla dive watch BJ8050, BJ8051,BJ8044, NH6930, NH6934. This allows you to attach a variety of 24mm straps to your watch including a bracelet, leather, nylon zulu or nato, or a more flexible rubber straps. The Suppaparts Zilla adapters are made of titanium. To install the Suppaparts adapters, you simply remove the 4 screws on the back of the watch, remove the retaining ring, remove the rubber strap, drop in the adapters, re-install the ring and screws. The case back is never opened when you perform this install.

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Suppaparts adapters are used to replace your original rubber strap on the Citizen dive watches (BJ8050, BJ8051, BJ8044, NH6930,NH6934) mostly known as Eco-Zilla and Auto-Zilla, and now the new Depth Meter series (BN2021, BN2024, BN2025, BN2029)and the new Ecodrive Promaster (BN0174, BN0175, BN0176, BN0177). This allows you to attach a variety of straps to your watch including a bracelet, leather, nylon zulu or nato, or more flexible rubber straps.
Now we offer different adapters to fit most of Casio G-Shock watches. Our Suppa-G adapters will fit the watches that have a 16mm gap in the back once you remove the original strap.
Suppaparts is not associated with Citizen Watch Company or Casio G-shock. We are an independent producer of aftermarket parts.

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2. The double edge blades are way cheaper then the the multi blade replacements. (One pack with 5 blades is already included)

This Safety Razor is made of grade 2 titanium and its head is designed to offer your 4 different settings for the blade.

That way you can adjust it better to your skin type and hair type/length.

The total length of the Razor is 110mm.

The high strength, low weight of 75g and outstanding corrosion resistance of grade 2 titanium makes it the most suitable material for a Razor because it is also highly anti-allergic.

This razor will last you a life time.

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https://suppaparts.com/


[FONT=&quot]The Suppa Zilla Bracelet is a combination of titanium adapters with a titanium link bracelet and a stainless steel adjustable divers clasp. Made for BJ8050, BJ8051, BJ8044, NH6930, NH6934. All the bracelet parts are brushed to match. You can remove the bracelet and use these adapters with other 24mm straps.

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Brushed Zilla Bracelet
The titanium bracelet will match the brushed finish on the steel eco-zilla watch, it is also a close match to any titanium auto or ecozilla watch finish. This bracelet includes adapters that will accept any 24mm strap.
$310 incl. Fedex Shipping.




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Ah, so the adaptors are only to graft the thing onto the head. This would suggest nothing special in the way of accommodating titanium screw pins. Assuming they're titanium.

Probably nothing amiss but I've got enough left over fear of tiny titanium threaded parts that I'd probably wait for a pile of reviews specific to the titanium product.
 
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